Master Your Practice with Dr. James Willis
This is a two front podcast.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:Today's guest is the visionary behind Willis and Associates Family Dentistry growing from one to 17 practices with zero outside funding. What I love about James Willis is that he's a real entrepreneur. He's what I consider the American dream. As a true entrepreneur, he bootstrapped his seven offices through reinvesting profits before looking for any loans. Doctor James Willis now spends 20% of his time chairside and 80% of his time leading his team.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:His mission is to keep dentistry controlled by dentists, not insurance companies or private equity. I really appreciate the activist side of Doctor. Willis, who won't relent to insurance companies, understands that private equity can take away from autonomy and good clinical decisions. And he's got big plans to do something about it. With this upcoming Danovia brand, he's creating a collaborative platform for solo practitioners who want to maintain clinical autonomy while gaining the benefits of group practice.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:I can't wait for you to hear this episode. Doctor. James Willis, welcome to The Happy Dentist.
Dr. James Willis:Thank you, Ingrid. It's a pleasure to connect with you and get to speak with you today.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:Same here. And I'll share one more thing, James. You know, you and I spoke about the fact that, you know, for my company, we had to raise venture because I was competing against, you know, these big companies. But venture, now that I've been in this for seven years, I'm so, like, turned off by it because it's just a it's an industry that I find to be, not suitable towards the end customer. And something that I really appreciate about you and your story is that you are a real entrepreneur.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:You are a true entrepreneur. Meaning, like, you took a business, you made revenue, and you grew based on your revenue without outside of funding. And that new to me, that entrepreneur is like, you're the American dream in so many ways. And so I'd love to just start off by sharing your story and how you, of all, decided to become a dentist and then how you decided to grow from one to 17 practices.
Dr. James Willis:Sure. Ingrid, I think what you touched on there where in the grand scheme of like, we look at dentistry and corporate dentistry and private equity. And I do think that when you get in that realm of the big business that the end user, which is our patients, I think that that I I can totally understand where you're coming from that that sometimes as a dentist, we we love that doctor to patient relationship that sometimes that can get lost when you get into the big side of the business. And, you know, kinda I think that's the that's where DSOs get, like, the bad stigma with, like, the corporate greed, and we're forgetting. We're looking at the spreadsheets and not the patients.
Dr. James Willis:Right? And and I do think, dentists at heart, you know, we're we're trained, you know, in in a medical profession where, you know, our our goal is is you know, to to increase our patient's health. And, you know, we're not thinking about, you know, good doctors. We're our number one concern is our patients, and it's not, you know, the bottom line and and how to maximize profit. And I think it's really important.
Dr. James Willis:And and and I think that's something special about my group is that we haven't lost our our heart and soul, and we're still focused on that end user and the patient. But your question, how how did I become a dentist? I I actually I think everyone has this, like, a similar story. Well, for me, a lot of dentists, think it's like a family. Like, their dad was a dentist, you know, and you you see that a lot.
Dr. James Willis:And for me, I was the dentist, doctor in my family. My family actually, you know, my my mom worked for IBM, and my dad, was a financial adviser with Merrill Lynch. My brother is, you know, with Capital Group American Funds. So my family was more on the business side. So I was the you know, to get into dentistry on my family.
Dr. James Willis:And it was actually my, my dentist that that I went to, you know, growing up as as a kid that I remember and this is is this is one of the great things about dentistry is you get to connect with the patients and really make differences in their lives. And this is a this is a conversation. I remember I was going in for a checkup, and my family dentist, this was doctor Howard in Charleston, West Virginia. You know, how are you doing? How are you doing, James?
Dr. James Willis:And I'm in college at the time, and I and I'm like, yeah. I'm doing doing pretty good. You know, I got in the honors program. I, you know, had, like, a three eight four o or something, and and he's like, oh, that's great. And he's just like, you gotta be a doctor.
Dr. James Willis:You know? You you got and I'm and I I always like and I think a lot of us, you know, we always like that that prestige that comes with being a doctor. And, you know, I I I really wasn't sure at the time what I wanted to do. And I really settled at that time that I was either gonna do dentistry or med school. And between the two, what really drew me to dentistry was, I think, in four years combining the the clinical and the didactic and being able to start your career, you know, four years out versus medical school, you do the four years of med school, and then you're doing the four years of fellowship and then another two or three of specialization.
Dr. James Willis:You know, I was looking at that timeline, and I was like, man, that's what is that gonna be? Med school is gonna be almost a ten year journey, before I out. You know, that I think that side of me, you know, from the beginning, I always wanted to my the dream is, like, own your own practice and, you know, build, you know, the kind of the vision of how you want to, you know, provide the care for your patients. And I thought at the time medicine, I believe, you know, the docs were really losing a lot of their autonomy with, you know, the hospital and, system and and that kind of management. And dentistry, you could still kinda come out and really, you know, build your own practice.
Dr. James Willis:So I took the MCAT and DAT, and dentistry was the ultimate ultimately the choice. And I will say this is kinda cool. When I interviewed for dental school at WVU, I went to West Virginia, excellent clinical program. But I on the DAT, this was one of the, like, my little highlights that I I still look back at. I had a perfect score.
Dr. James Willis:It was, like, 36 points out. It was the max you could get, but I had 36 out of 36 on on not not the DAT as a whole, but, you know, but on reading comprehension section, I was, like, 36 out of 36. And I remember the, the professors interviewing me saying, you know, what how did you study? And and I was like, well, you know, to be honest, I I never at that point, I never really knew how to study. So it was a pretty it it was definitely like a half assed, like you know?
Dr. James Willis:I I was smart enough through high school and undergrad where I really didn't have to study. I think I learned to study in dental school, but I I I was always I was always a reader, you know, growing up. And that was kind of a gift of mine on on that particular section.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:You're the dentist that I was jealous of my whole life. You know? I'm the opposite of you. I'm the person that had to study my ass off.
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Dr. Ingrid Murra:James, you touched on something that I want to talk about, which is that you're saying that you decided to become a dentist, a lot of it because, of course, the prestige, right, that comes with serving patients and being a doctor, but also that autonomy, that autonomy that comes from being able to own your own practice and build your own vision and treat patients that you wanna treat the way the way that you wanna treat them. And this to me is a question that I'm always asking myself because I don't know if that autonomy is a fallacy. In your case, you now are working in the chair two days a week and you're spending three days a week leading your company, growing your company, setting the vision. And what I've seen in most of, you know, the dentists that we partner with at my company is that people are suffering. People are suffering.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:They don't have that autonomy because they're slaves their practice. And when I talk to you, I don't get that sense. So what have you done? What have you learned that you can share with our audience about how you can own your practice and have autonomy?
Dr. James Willis:That's that's a good question. And but I'll I'll say one thing, and this is something I think all the owners, whether you own one office or five offices or, you know, 10, whatever, when you say I did, like, the the chair the chairside two days and then, you know, at the desk three days. When you own your own business, it it's really it's more like like Monday, Tuesday, I'm in the chair or with a patient. And then it's like, you know, Wednesday through Sunday, I'm, like, working on the business and, you know, till I go to sleep. Right?
Dr. James Willis:So, you know, I think, there there is that when when you own it. It's it's it's pretty much, you know, twenty four hours a day, there's there's things that are popping up that you're responding to. But, but now that's that's a great question. How, and let me clarify this. It's it's how do you how do you, you know, run the practice without, you know, I guess almost like you're you're talking about, like, burnout a little bit.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:Yeah. Like, how do you feel, you know, how do you feel proud of what you're doing where you can go home at night and, like, I I get what you're saying, by the way. Like, just because you're not seeing patients, if you're an owner, you are twenty four seven. There's no, like, ifs ands
Dr. James Willis:100%.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:And buts about it. But you have autonomy in a way that, like, it's you're not a slave to it. You do it because you want to. You get the opportunity to work on your business as opposed to putting out fires, you know, being kind of in this like fight or flight state, which I think a lot of dentists are in staffing issue, people who are late, you know, they don't have enough patience. So how do you get out of that fight or flight to the point that you've scaled to 17 practices?
Dr. James Willis:So, yeah, I I've never you know, we I think we all experience, dentistry, you know, is a stressful profession. Right? But I think it's repetitions, you know, when you start, you know, new procedures are stressful, but it's repetitions and you get comfortable with that. And I think the same goes, you know, as far as, like, things overwhelming and and and that, like, as far as things overwhelming you go, I I think that that just over time and and with the repetitions, you eventually get used to it. You do have to have a high tolerance to to stress and, you know, to to do this.
Dr. James Willis:I mean, that that's a fact on the business side. And and it's funny. I I actually find that the two days that I'm doing chairside, my stress goes down. And I have I have one of these aura rings. I don't know if you ever heard of this.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:Oh, yeah.
Dr. James Willis:My wife got me this. It's like one of those health trackers. And I I think this kinda plays into this this question, but I I noticed when I was getting so so I've done, like, five days a week, chairsidedot, you know, high volume, and and we have to with the insurance practices. Right? You have to be high volume.
Dr. James Willis:Right? And I've done the the five days a week in the in the chair, hardcore to where you do get that burnout that that kinda I think that's kinda what you're describing that, like, fight or flight. It's like it just becomes overwhelming. So I've done that five days in the chair, and then I've built this group up to where I've completely replaced myself as a clinician. And I've done, you know, the full time at the desk.
Dr. James Willis:So I've done both of those. And now, like I'm sharing with you, I'm I'm, you know, probably 20% chair and and 80% at the desk. Right? So between those three things, my my health tracker, has actually shown me now that I'm back doing clinical, my stress level actually goes down when I'm doing those two clinical days. Those are, like, my least stressful days.
Dr. James Willis:And and it really dawned on me. It's it's so funny. When I was doing those five hardcore days, you know, early in my career, and and my mentor, Howard one of my mentors, Howard Farrand, Dentaltown, used to say, work like no other dentist for five years and live like no other dentist for the rest of your life. And I really took that to heart. And I think, you know, you you kinda have to power through that and really commit to to that, you know, and and, you know, kinda push through the stress when you're starting out and and get it to a point where it becomes a repetition and it becomes easy.
Dr. James Willis:Right? You get used to that. And I'm definitely there clinically. And it it's it's funny. The, you know, when I when I was doing those hardcore five days clinical, in the back of my head, was like, man, wouldn't that be nice to to have the corner office and be the business guy?
Dr. James Willis:And, you know, I don't have to do the dentistry, the, you know, the grind anymore. Right? And that's kinda that that's that flight. Like, I was like, man, I wanna get away from this. Right?
Dr. Ingrid Murra:Mhmm.
Dr. James Willis:And so I did that. I got away from it. And I did the business thing five days a week. Right? And now doing the hybrid, I actually find that I'm like, it's less stressful, doing the clinical part.
Dr. James Willis:You know, when I'm at that when I have my loops and you're you're that 5.5 x mag on that crown prep, you know, that's the that you're in the art of dentistry. And, you know, it's like that's when you get to connect with the staff and you, you know, you get to do you know, make a difference in your patients' lives and do the smile cases and the fun stuff. And, that's when you're kinda zoomed in. Right? And then when you step out to the desk, it's like you're zoomed out.
Dr. James Willis:It's like you're in the big, you're in the business world. You're dealing with the with the those challenges.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:I really like what you're saying. I really like what you're saying about really, like, feeling good in the chair and your stress levels being down. I've got a theory on this, which is that you're good at it. Like, you're good at it when you're there, and that's because you're good at it, it makes you feel good, and it gives you the ability to be present, fully fully present. Yes.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:Whereas when you're in the business side, your brain's like staff, HR, payroll, quote, marketing, and your brain's everywhere.
Dr. James Willis:So you're
Dr. Ingrid Murra:just like, I'm here, I'm in it, and I'm gonna crush this.
Dr. James Willis:Yes. Yes. Yes. I agree. And it's funny.
Dr. James Willis:I feel like we spend so much time developing those skills to get to do those surgeries. Right? You know? And then the thing dentists wanna do is jump out of that and let's go into business. Let's go into a field that you know, I spent eight years specializing, to be, you know, a dentist and do dental surgery.
Dr. James Willis:And now that I'm really good at that, like, let's go out and and let me, like, be a business guy. Right? And it's like, well, now you've got you start over again. And I think I think that the grass isn't always greener. I would tell docs, you know, appreciate what you have.
Dr. James Willis:And I I think you get to make a difference in people's lives as a dentist. So, you know, a part of that is just just the mindset and realizing that that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Right?
Dr. Ingrid Murra:A 100%. And I I think that's something that I don't know. I think kind of is just the truth is that people have to experience that themselves. Like, I still I was with the dentist last night. He was like, oh, so you don't practice anymore?
Dr. Ingrid Murra:I was like, I'm, you know, I'm practicing seven days a week. You know? It's it's and but I'm with you. I also I'm the clinical auditor for for my business. And so every time that I look at ClinCheck, my, like, heart just, like, resets.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:I'm like, I'm here. I'm present. I know what I'm doing. I've got this. Like Mhmm.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:It's the best feeling ever, but I I'm kinda with you. Like, I think that I think that people need to I think people need to understand that and experience it themselves to actually be able to realize that it's the grasses that are always greener.
Dr. James Willis:No. No. And and for me, getting to experience both sides of, like, stepping out of the chair completely, working on the business, like, kind of similar to I think your path maybe as an orthodontist, but getting to experience that you appreciate more of the clinical grind, which dentists I think, you know, will complain about, right? They think it's going to be so easy on the business side, but I I I think that that's that's where you know, I was listening to, a webinar between, it was a, it was one of these dental accounting firms and, and then, like, a banker specialized in lending to dentists. They talked about, you know, dentists starting groups and the ones that actually do go out and buy another practice and attempt to start a group.
Dr. James Willis:I get I don't know where they got these statistics, but this guy, his stats were one in five docs that pursue multiple locations. And this is not just thinking about it or talking about it, but actually, like, you buy another office. One in five, never make it past five locations, and one in 15 that start to pursue multiple locations never make it past 10. And I think that's a lot of times where these dentists think the grass is greener on the business side, and they actually start that. And they realize, you know, I spent eight years specializing in a science and engineering and and, you know, a surgery type profession.
Dr. James Willis:And now I'm gonna jump out and, you know, I wanna I think that it's gonna be really cool to be at the desk. Right? And I think they realize that, you know, hey. That's really not fun, and this you know, they kinda scale back a little bit. And and so I think, you know, maybe, some of the value I can give to the listeners is, like, you know, how you become that, like, one in 15 that can make it past 10.
Dr. James Willis:And my story is a little unique, I think, compared to, the way most dentist approach ownership.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:Tell me about it. I wanna hear about it.
Dr. James Willis:So I think the the one of the really interesting facts when I when I think about our group and how we started, my six offices, I did not take out any, private lending. We did not you know, I think the typical dentist will go to Bank of America and you get, you know, $500,000 to a million from Bank of America. You buy your practice. And then I think, you know, if you look at the really the big picture there, there's a solo doc. You're gonna buy that 500,000 to a million dollar practice.
Dr. James Willis:And then, you know, fifteen, twenty years down the line, or however long you practice, you'll sell it. You know, maybe you sell it for a million to 1.5. So you're netting, like, you know, $500. That's, I think, the typical solo practitioner model. Right?
Dr. James Willis:And, what I did, I worked as an associate for three years and, was loving the office, the team. I was building that that practice up. I I used my savings from my associate position to buy the practice with cash. The practice I bought was the the associate position that I had. I never left that position.
Dr. James Willis:So the practice was a cash deal, that I used the, you know, the the basically, profits from the two that I had. And this is how do you build it? How do you build a a dental group? Right? One one office at a time.
Dr. James Willis:Okay? So office was a scratch start. Again, using the profits from the three. office, owner financing the real estate and the practice. office and office were, again, it was a cash deal, and it was an owner finance deal.
Dr. James Willis:So I think I'm up to, like, seven at this point, and I haven't gotten a single, you know, private lender to back us. And, you know, when you talked about in the beginning how, you know, that's kinda like, when you start get dealing with the PE and stuff, it can be you know, the the the end user, you lose touch with the patient. It's just at this point, it's it's really it's about EBITDA. It's about spreadsheets. It's you know, we're losing kind of the heart and soul of of what this profession is about.
Dr. James Willis:So we never even got into that realm. We had established kind of a bootstrapped group from the ground up, you know, seven offices. I did not get into leveraging interest or getting loans until we had seven offices. At that point, I had enough base to build a platform, and, you know, we had we were able to get those the the, you know, the CFO that's a CPA and the insurance specialist, our IT director. You know?
Dr. James Willis:So we we had the platform. And then, you know, this is part of, like, you have to have the vision in in in that in that business world when you're running a group. At that point, it was, like, pre COVID, and the interest rates, you know, were, like, 33%. Right? So I'm looking at inflation, and I'm like, you know, this is the time.
Dr. James Willis:Like, it's almost like, you know, you take out these 3% loans and you're like right there with inflation. It's like, I mean, you you have to do that. So that time we got aggressive and that after we already had a platform. Right? So we could get a little more aggressive because we had that centralized support.
Dr. James Willis:And, you know, we tried to maximize the loans at that point, you know, for the expansion at that point and get those those great, you know, 3%, you know, 4% rates. And and so that's how our group grew from there. So
Dr. Ingrid Murra:James, I wanna I wanna ask you something. I mean, because I think people are probably listening, and they're like, that, like, that sounds like a dream. Right? And, like, it sounds like you stayed up a lot of cash, and you were able to buy these, which it's I think it's hard nowadays. If I'm being honest, like, for the younger, like, just graduating over the past couple years, dentists, like, they've had a lot of student loans.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:You know? Yeah. Yeah. Of Yeah. Cost of living is going up.
Dr. James Willis:I've heard crazy stories with the student loans. There was somebody was saying, like, kids coming out with $700,000 in debt, and it's low. 7 to 8.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:That's that's without residency from NYU. It's it's criminal.
Dr. James Willis:That's wild.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:It's like, it's unbelievable. But something you and I were talking about that I think is just so important, you know, I I know that when I graduated, like, all I had done until I was 30 was focused on getting a's and, like, learning orthodontics. Right? Like, that is that was literally the thirty years of my life is, like, becoming an orthodontist. And I didn't understand, of all, anything about leadership, business, and, like, working with other people because dentistry, until you graduate, is this solo sport.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:And something that you and I are were talking about before this call, which I just it's such a painful lesson for me, so I would love to share your story, is how you realized, you know, how to attract really good people and leverage people to build out your vision. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.
Dr. James Willis:Well, you know, that's the the one thing I think we we touched on initially that that I haven't I haven't spoken on. And, you know, how do you build anything? Right? It's it's you have to have the vision. But over the last decade, we've had, you know, just I've been blessed to have just some really exceptional a lot of individuals that have worked really, really hard.
Dr. James Willis:And you're so right that, you know, you have to find those people. And, you know, there's no no one right. No one knows how to where do you find great people? I think I think it's just discernment is part of it. And, also, you you really don't know someone.
Dr. James Willis:You know, you do that interview, and you're gonna get obviously the best side of them. And then I feel like a month later, you're really gonna get with the real person, right, after they've kinda gotten a little comfortable. And, you know, a lot of times, dentists, you know, they they keep people on that really aren't aligned with their vision and people that I think really aren't putting the the patients And, you know, those are some of the practices that I think, you know, really struggle somewhat. So I I think part of it is you have to you have to be able to communicate well. You have to be able to attract the top talent.
Dr. James Willis:You have to have a vision to to attract these people. You know, the the best people, they they wanna be a part of something. Right? They don't wanna show up at a practice that there's there's, like, no future. It's like a dead end job.
Dr. James Willis:The best people wanna be a part of something that's growing. So you have to be able to attract those people. And then I think you have to also be quick, to fire. And, you know, I I and this was some another mentor. Hire slowly, fire quickly.
Dr. James Willis:And, you know, I don't wanna, like, come across, like, harsh like that. But I think you're really doing, like, someone a favor if if this isn't going to be a good fit long term, like, like, let's go let them go find something else that that really aligns better with what they're doing, and get someone in that that's more aligned with what what we want to do here. And what we wanna do here is serve the patients. And I think a lot of dentists, they kinda get stuck in that bubble, and these practices kinda take on like a like a kind of a their own little cultures. Dentistry is so unique.
Dr. James Willis:All these practices, they have these little cultures of their own. A lot of times the dentist is outnumbered, right? So the staff can kinda I've seen it many, many times. They kinda they kinda can take control of the ship at times, right? And we just have to make sure that that we're all on the same page and that we're here to serve the patients at the end of the day.
Dr. James Willis:Serving the patients, keeping the patients happy, that's what's giving us all success. So, know, as a leader, you really have to kinda keep that culture focused on that. And you have to have the the top talent and people people that believe in the vision. Good it's tough to find good people. I I my advice is, you know, when you do find those, like, those the the those a players, you you do whatever you can to keep them.
Dr. James Willis:You know? You you retain the a's and the b's, and you get rid of the c's and the d's, and you gotta quickly be able to differentiate that, if you're gonna create and and and you build a top performing team.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:James, how do you know if you found an a player?
Dr. James Willis:I mean, well, look. Like, it just it really depends on the position. Right? Like, let's let's say, you know, dental assistant. I mean, it's it it you can I can you can quickly tell as a as a practicing dentist?
Dr. James Willis:You know, they they have the energy. They they, you know, they have the personality with the patients. They that they have the hand skills. It's a it's a very tough job. You can quickly tell with a dental assistant.
Dr. James Willis:With the front desk, I think it's it's more evidenced in, you know, your your numbers, you know, their their ability to, you know, the front desk is so important. And I really how how do you know when you found an a player? I I I it's just a discernment skill. I mean, I think you have to have an eye for quality. And I I I think I I think that's one of the things I've been able to kinda, kinda have through through my journey.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:A 100%. I mean, you have to. To get to the point that you are, you have to be able to have a discernment. And I think it's it's kinda like the million dollar question. And I I kind of feel like what you're saying is that you just have to put in the work.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:Like, there's no, like, you know, solution. Like, you're gonna have to hire about people and recognize it and say
Dr. James Willis:You will.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:Oh, yeah. That's Yeah.
Dr. James Willis:It's part
Dr. Ingrid Murra:of growth. The kind of horse we wanna work with.
Dr. James Willis:Right. Right. It's it's part of growth. You're you're you know, you're like I said, it's you really see the real person, I think, later on when they get really comfortable. I mean, you can tell off the bat if somebody is is like a d or an f.
Dr. James Willis:Right? But, you know, I think in business, the hardest players are the c players because they can do just enough to kinda keep on, but they don't do bad enough to where you let them go. Right? And that's that's probably the the those are the hardest to really deal with. The a players are easy to identify like you ask.
Dr. James Willis:I mean, we we can all see that. It's easy to identify the a's and the b's. I think the c players are the hardest. Those are the ones that, you know, they're doing just enough to keep by, but the the maybe that that part of the practice isn't excelling. You know?
Dr. James Willis:So and and we're limited by, you know, the labor market. Right? I mean, that's a huge issue. So I mean, you know, we can't even have this discussion with hygienists. Right?
Dr. James Willis:You you know, if they have an RDH, like, it's like like, we're we're blessed. Right? So, like, let's just throw that let's throw the ratings out the window when we're talking about hygienists because we we're if we get a if we get a r d h, we're we're happy. Now I I will say this. I I have the best hygienist.
Dr. James Willis:Okay? So I have been and that's I've been blessed I've been blessed with that. So
Dr. Ingrid Murra:I mean, listen. The the fact that that's obviously, like, an industry wide issue, I I always say, like, that feels like the best use case for Elon's robots is, like, build a hydrogen. Like, it's such an issue, and it's they're so expensive for practice. But, James, I know we're wrapping up, and there's one more thing that I wanted to ask you, which is around your vision. You have a really big vision.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:Talk to us about it.
Dr. James Willis:My well, there's there's two things. I would say simply my my vision for dentistry is dentistry needs to be controlled by dentists. And and dentistry is best served when dentists are in control. And that's where, like we said in the beginning, you don't lose track of the end user. You know, dentistry is at its at its core in essence is dentists, you know, increasing the health of our patients.
Dr. James Willis:And if dentistry is controlled by dentists, I don't believe I believe we don't lose that heart of it. And, you know, my group's gotten to a size where, we do have a chance to to go further. And when I look at the groups that have grown nationally and I'm I'm really we're we're Virginia based, Mid Atlantic, East Coast, and we're primed really for that next step, where when we're developing that model, where we can attract partner docs at this point to join our group. And, you know, I wanna create a group of docs that wanna keep dentists in control of dentistry, like, primarily. And that's that's pretty simple mission right there.
Dr. James Willis:And then the thing, and we didn't touch on this, this is like a whole another podcast, but we're getting abused by the insurance industry.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:Uh-oh.
Dr. James Willis:And I I just think it's it's absolutely terrible, the state that we're in with these nonprofit insurance companies with a CEO making, you know, 30,000,000 a year or whatever or 15,000,000 a year. I don't know. It's just it's crazy. And they haven't raised the maximum since the nineteen fifties. And the doctors are suffering.
Dr. James Willis:The patients suffer. They don't get as much doctor time because the doctor is spread more thin, trying to do more with less. You know, when we look at the current climate, the overhead, the staff wages are going up, The cost of supplies will be going up, and the dental insurance industry is not raising, reimbursement meaningfully. And, what they're getting away with, with a lot, that they shouldn't be, and they're not operating as nonprofits. And we don't need dentistry to be controlled by insurance executives and, you know, corporate MBAs and giant, you know, BlackRock hedge funds, whatever, where the quality of goes down of that end user, that that patient, that dentist experience.
Dr. James Willis:So I think the vision for the big picture, for us is I I would like my my vision is, you know, my influence of my group, hope, can have on dentistry is to grow and keep the dentists in control of dentistry. And so that's the model that that we're gonna be developing. Actually, we we really have have have a model that by the end of this quarter, we're gonna roll out, that will allow us to, basically partner with I'm looking for, like, high productive, you know, class GPs, solo GPs out there that kinda see the consolidation coming and wanna seat at the table. And maybe they don't want to be, you know, the eight hundredth dock in after four recaps. Maybe they wanna start the ground level before the you know, any funding has come.
Dr. James Willis:So that's that's my vision for the future.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:Hell, yeah. I I'm so into it, and I love it so much. And I couldn't agree with you more, honestly. You know, it's it's one of the things that whenever we meet a new dentist at and my company, Two Front, that's the thing that I tell them. It's like, we're not a lab.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:We're a clinician led clinician led, clinician built for clinicians for our patients. And I think that's what happens in, you know, my industry, the clear aligner industry, is we had a bunch of companies not built by clinicians. And I think that's where things have gone wrong. So I love your vision. For any GP, what are you gonna say?
Dr. James Willis:Totally agree. I I totally agree. And I think when you have those companies that are built by the non clinicians, I think they can only keep growing for the sake of growth so long when and then there's just no structure, there's no heart and soul. And it's just I I don't think that ultimately, that that model's going to, be something that lasts.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:I'm totally with you. And I think this is gonna be one of those things that we look back in time and we're like, oh, remember when, like, there used to be an era where, like, non clinicians built clinician businesses? Like Mhmm. It seems, like, so obvious and antiquated.
Dr. James Willis:Right. You gotta have all the respect in the world, for the wet glove dentist that's on the And that's why part of leading this group, I really don't want to give up my chairside clinical time because I feel like you to not lose touch with that. Right? And I think it's it's tough to lead a dental group, when you're you when you're just basing it on spreadsheets and you you've the kind of patient doctor experience.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:A 100%. Well, James, this has been such a great conversation for any GP who's been listening to you, and they wanna join your vision. Where can they find you?
Dr. James Willis:So our national like, the next step from our group will be, you know, national brand, national platform. So we have denoviadental.com. De novia is the brand. It's it's dentistry, innovation, and vision. And the model right now, you know, we're working with, like, the the corporate legal things, developing that, like, partner model.
Dr. James Willis:But we're looking for docs, the solo docs that that wanna be a part of the consolidation, that we can provide value, provide that central business support, in the platform with, that that can kinda that have alignment with our values and and what we wanna see with the future here. So the step, you know, check us out there. And we're looking I mean, I think the next wave, we we're up to 17 offices. We have two more coming. So we're we're getting, you know, close to 20.
Dr. James Willis:But we'd like to, we'd like to add on an additional, you know, 20, practices within the next, two years. And so that would that would be the place to start if you're interested in that.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:Amazing. Amazing. Well, listen. We're gonna have to have another conversation about insurance because this is something I feel so passionate about, and I I wanna just talk about, like, what we can do about this. So I'm excited to have you back on the show for that conversation.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:And until then, thank you again for joining.
Dr. James Willis:Great. Thanks again, Ingrid. It was was a lot of fun and and, really impressed with what you're doing with two front, and, I wish you the best.
Dr. Ingrid Murra:Thank you so much.
